Saturday, November 20, 2010

Glorified tuna salad

According to papist Scott Windsor:

Where I may have used SOME secondary sources, it is in SUPPORT of primary source documentation.

And what passes for “primary source documentation” by Windsor’s yardstick? Here’s a revealing example:

I've supported the testimony of Early Church Fathers with modern scientific evidence. The Early Church testimony is that St. Peter was crucified in Rome, upside down - and the bones found, according to the scientific evidence I provided earlier, supports the testimony of those Fathers. Mr. Hays statement of this being mere legend is summarily dismissed.

Okay, let’s looks at the primary source documentation for that claim. To my knowledge, our earliest primary source of information for the tale of Peter’s upside down crucifixion comes from the apocryphal Acts of Peter. Here’s a sample:

And the brethren repented and entreated Peter to fight against Simon: (who said that he was the power of God, and lodged in the house of Marcellus a senator, whom he had convinced by his charms).

And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him..And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed.

But Simon within the house said thus to the dog: Tell Peter that I am not within. Whom the dog answered in the presence of Marcellus: Thou exceeding wicked and shameless one, enemy of all that live and believe on Christ Jesus, here is a dumb animal sent unto thee which hath received a human voice to confound thee and show thee to be a deceiver and a liar. Hast thou taken thought so long, to say at last: 'Tell him that I am not within?' Art thou not ashamed to utter thy feeble and useless words against Peter the minister and apostle of Christ, as if thou couldst hide thee from him that hath commanded me to speak against thee to thy face: and that not for thy sake but for theirs whom thou wast deceiving and sending unto destruction? Cursed therefore shalt thou be, thou enemy and corrupter of the way of the truth of Christ, who shall prove by fire that dieth not and in outer darkness, thine iniquities that thou hast committed. And having thus said, the dog went forth and the people followed him, leaving Simon alone. And the dog came unto Peter as he sat with the multitude that was come to see Peter's face, and the dog related what he had done unto Simon. And thus spake the dog unto the angel and apostle of the true God: Peter, thou wilt have a great contest with the enemy of Christ and his servants, and many that have been deceived by him shalt thou turn unto the faith; wherefore thou shalt receive from God the reward of thy work. And when the dog had said this he fell down at the apostle Peter's feet and gave up the ghost.

And Peter turned and saw a herring (sardine) hung in a window, and took it and said to the people: If ye now see this swimming in the water like a fish, will ye be able to believe in him whom I preach? And they said with one voice: Verily we will believe thee. Then he said -now there was a bath for swimming at hand: In thy name, O Jesu Christ, forasmuch as hitherto it is not believed in, in the sight of all these live and swim like a fish. And he cast the herring into the bath, and it lived and began to swim. And all the people saw the fish swimming, and it did not so at that hour only, lest it should be said that it was a delusion (phantasm), but he made it to swim for a long time, so that they brought much people from all quarters and showed them the herring that was made a living fish, so that certain of the people even cast bread to it; and they saw that it was whole.

And when it was told Peter that Simon had said this, Peter sent unto him a woman which had a sucking child, saying to her: Go down quickly, and thou wilt find one that seeketh me. For thee there is no need that thou answer him at all, but keep silence and hear what the child whom thou holdest shall say unto him. The woman therefore went down. Now the child whom she suckled was seven months old; and it received a man's voice and said unto Simon: O thou abhorred of God and men, and destruction of truth, and evil seed of all corruption, O fruit by nature unprofitable! but only for a short and little season shalt thou be seen, and thereafter eternal punishment is laid up for thee. Thou son of a shameless father, that never puttest forth thy roots for good but for poison, faithless generation void of all hope! thou wast not confounded when a dog reproved thee; I a child am compelled of God to speak, and not even now art thou ashamed.

And already on the morrow a great multitude assembled at the Sacred Way to see him flying. And Peter came unto the place, having seen a vision (or, to see the sight), that he might convict him in this also; for when Simon entered into Rome, he amazed the multitudes by flying: but Peter that convicted him was then not yet living at Rome: which city he thus deceived by illusion, so that some were carried away by him (amazed at him).

And as he went forth of the city, he saw the Lord entering into Rome. And when he saw him, he said: Lord, whither goest thou thus (or here)? And the Lord said unto him: I go into Rome to be crucified. And Peter said unto him: Lord, art thou (being) crucified again? He said unto him: Yea, Peter, I am (being) crucified again. And Peter came to himself: and having beheld the Lord ascending up into heaven, he returned to Rome, rejoicing, and glorifying the Lord, for that he said: I am being crucified: the which was about to befall Peter.

I beseech you the executioners, crucify me thus, with the head downward and not otherwise: and the reason wherefore, I will tell unto them that hear. And when they had hanged him up after the manner he desired, he began again to say: Ye men unto whom it belongeth to hear, hearken to that which I shall declare unto you at this especial time as I hang here. Learn ye the mystery of all nature, and the beginning of all things, what it was. For the first man, whose race I bear in mine appearance (or, of the race of whom I bear the likeness), fell (was borne) head downwards, and showed forth a manner of birth such as was not heretofore: for it was dead, having no motion. He, then, being pulled down -who also cast his first state down upon the earth- established this whole disposition of all things, being hanged up an image of the creation (Gk. vocation) wherein he made the things of the right hand into left hand and the left hand into right hand, and changed about all the marks of their nature, so that he thought those things that were not fair to be fair, and those that were in truth evil, to be good. Concerning which the Lord saith in a mystery: Unless ye make the things of the right hand as those of the left, and those of the left as those of the right, and those that are above as those below, and those that are behind as those that are before, ye shall not have knowedge of the kingdom. This thought, therefore, have I declared unto you; and the figure wherein ye now see me hanging is the representation of that man that first came unto birth.

And Marcellus not asking leave of any, for it was not possible, when he saw that Peter had given up the ghost, took him down from the cross with his own hands and washed him in milk and wine: and cut fine seven minae of mastic, and of myrrh and aloes and indian leaf other fifty, and perfumed (embalmed) his body and filled a coffin of marble of great price with Attic honey and laid it in his own tomb.


http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/actspeter.html

This is the rock solid foundation on which Catholics like Windsor build their faith.

12 comments:

  1. Eusebius notes, "Writings published by heretics under the names of the apostles, such as the Gospels of Peter, Thomas, Mathhias, and others, or the Acts of Andrew, John, and other apostles [including the Acts of Peter] have never been cited by any in the succession of church writers. The type of phraseology used contrasts with apostolic style, and the opinions and thrusts of their contents are so dissonant from true orthodoxy that they show themselves to be forgeries of heretics. Accordingly, they ought not be reckoned even among the spurious books but discarded as impious and absurd." (3;25)

    Daniel William O'Connor ("Peter in Rome" New York and London: Columbia University Press, 1969) lists "The Acts of Peter" among "The Apocryphal Literature" on Peter, "without exception, too untrustworthy and too late to offer any information which might be considered as reliable and independent."

    The best estimate of its date of origin is about 180-190, and there is a very good possibility that it is Gnostic in origin.

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  2. You mean you don't think it preserves accurate memories of the talking dog, the talking baby, the resurrected dried fish, and Simon Magus flying through the air?

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  3. For the believing Roman Catholic, I'm sure it's fine.

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  4. Did I tell you the one about the talking parrot?

    Yes, and I obeyed him or her??

    I was a little impressed with Scott until now.

    Now, are you sure of these facts that Windsor uses as his primary source?

    Wow, I guess I am just very naive because I am finding it quite difficult to comprehend that he would use some secondary sources to support such primary sources as the apocryphal Acts of Peter to make his case.

    Is it a fact that modern science has living relatives of Peter so as to have the DNA from bones purported to be from him, the Apostle Peter, so as to corroborate by modern means the testimony that Peter was indeed crucified in Rome, upside down?

    Scott, are you serious? Do you actually hold as primary source evidence information from the apocryphal Acts of Peter and believe the dog told Peter that?

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  5. Steve Windsor said: "...and the bones found, according to the scientific evidence I provided earlier, supports the testimony of those Fathers."

    Yes, they're only found and produced every time Rome needs evidence.

    Just a reminder though; the bones of blessed apostles, Peter and Paul, and of the holy martyrs, Laurentius, John, and Paul, and Gregory, and Pancratius in Rome were sent to King Oswy of the Britons along with a letter making the priest Wighard a British Archbishop.

    If bones were found after A.D. 670, St. Peter's bones must miraculously continue to re-appear in Rome as needed ( I conjecture because Britain is too cold for them)

    If you accept this, isn't this further evidence of the truth of the mother Church since every time bones appear in Rome its a miracle?

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  6. NATAMLLC SAID:

    "Scott, are you serious? Do you actually hold as primary source evidence information from the apocryphal Acts of Peter and believe the dog told Peter that?"

    I guess the crucial question for Scott is whether or not the dog was speaking ex cathedra.

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  7. Steve said:
    ---
    I guess the crucial question for Scott is whether or not the dog was speaking ex cathedra.
    ---

    If it was, then we've finally got PROOF of who the first pope was!

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  8. Wait, guys! If you’ll read the corresponding passage in the authentic, unredacted version, you might not so haughtily dismiss the historicity and theopneusty of this most excellent work. It’s got me thinking about hitting the road to home sweet Rome, myself. Here are just a few short paragraphs from the section Steve cited, but my passage is from the original.

    ... And the dog came unto Peter as he sat with the multitude that was come to see Peter's face, and the dog related what he had done unto Simon, saying, "Behold, have I not deposited many steaming hills of mine own filth upon the accursed lawn of that wicked reviler, even the magician called Simon? Yea, verily! O cursed indeed be that same Simon, but blessed indeed be the sandal soiled in treading down my stinking landmines! The heel which grindeth dung into Simon's foreyard fescue and jasmine shall surely not slip nor stumble. Lo, extra points for the flaming hotfoot which succeedeth!"

    And thus spake the dog unto the angel and apostle of the true God: "Peter, thy Romish cult wilt have a great contest with the enemy of Christ, that battle to be waged for the mantle of 'Deceiver & Blasphemer Numero Uno.' The great accuser wilt ultimately prevail over thy false church by a slim margin, and thy successors shall join forces with him as his servants; and many that have been deceived by him shalt thou turn unto the faith devised by him; wherefore thou shalt receive from God the reward of thy work, namely scarlet robes, gaudy bling, hordes of tender altar boys, and perdition everlasting."

    And when the dog had said this he fell down at the apostle Peter's feet and gave up the ghost, but this only after he had charged Peter, saying, "Arise, thou noble Petros! Take up thy municipally-mandated scooper, and according to city statute retrieve from Simon's forelawn as many of mine heaps as thou shouldst find. Yon lumps shall be unto thy deluded minions an holy relic for annual display. And in the fullness of time it shall come to pass that one among your purple sons shall commission a painting by a skilled Etruscan. The canvass shall be a sheet of linen, the pigment my sacred dung. The finished masterpiece shall be called 'Shroud of Turin,' and no scheme shall ever put more gold into thy church’s coffers than this one, excepting indulgences and the Mafia. Amen."

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  9. Steve,

    in light of the title of this thread, one would suppose the dog wore a mitre?

    I knew there was always something fishy about that head gear!

    Hmmmmm, a fish hound! I wonder what sound is a fish hound sound?

    But, it certainly goes a long way in the exegesis of these verses:


    Mar 1:14 Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God,
    Mar 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."
    Mar 1:16 Passing alongside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net into the sea, for they were fishermen.
    Mar 1:17 And Jesus said to them, "Follow me, and I will make you become fishers of men."

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  10. Yes, perhaps a canine bishop or pontiff.

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  11. For the record, I have never cited that source. I challenge Mr. Hays to present documentation of me ever citing that source - or to retract this article and publicly apologize for the false accusation and/or implication. It is clear by the responses that some now feel I have used this source - and that is wholly false.

    Scott<<<

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  12. As I said in my post, that's that's the earliest primary source for the legend of Peter's upside down crucifixion. Feel free to react your appeal to the primary source material for Peter's upside down crucifixion, and issue a public apology.

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